Well, you do want a church which speaks authoritatively in all matters, don't you? :)

I can't speak directly to the issue of Neoplatonism (except to say that Augustine being informed by Neoplatonism is a given. One would assume it extended to his thinking on prayer. Some have argued that the most crucial conversion Augustine underwent was the 1st post-Manichean converstion, to NeoPlatonism, not the second, to Christianity.)

However, I'd like to say something about the whole heart v. words issue. I think it's really important to approach this in the proper framework. For Augustine, as indeed was the case for almost everyone thinking about and talking about prayer in the Christian context for most of Christian history, the external core of the activitiy called "prayer" was assumed to be speaking (or thinking) words that were written by someone else, not spontaneous, self-generated words. Certainly, the great spiritual writers and mystics wrote of the "goal" of the spiritual life - contemplation, which is an essentially wordless state of simply being with God. But what preceded it was a life of prayer centered around spoken prayer - traditionally in Catholicism, the most important of those prayers were the Psalms, the Lord's Prayer, and the Mass.

The key is, of course, to join one's own spiritual disposition to the words one is praying.

A passage from the entry on prayer from the encyclopedia, "Augustine Through the Ages:"

In this process of divine instruction the language of prayer plays an important role. Augustine allowed that words are not essential to prayer. Recourse to words is unnecessarry both to the heart's longing and to God's knowledge of that longing. Nevertheless, the employment of words is not without significance. To put one's desires into words serves to clarify for oneself the actual content of the desires. Moreover, this imposition of form through words necessarily modifies the desires themeselves.

The choice of language for voicing one's desire is thus of considerable consequence, for such language is instrumental not only in giving definition ot the yearnings of the heart but also in transforming the yearnings themselves. For the pilgrim, therefore, it is important that the language should express and shape desire in such a way that it contributes to progress in the journey. The language of desire provided in Scripture, especially the Lord's Prayer and the Psalms, is to be relied upon to serve that purpose.

Augustine insisted that entrusting oneself to the language of Scripture not only teaches on what to desire but actually produces the desire in the one who is so taught...

etc. etc.

God bless on the journey.

Amy - thankee, and I absolutely agree with you (and Augustine) about the importance of the form of prayer, i.e., reliance on Scripture.

St. Augustine may have had St. Paul in mind, particularly Romans 8:26-27. As well as being a neo-Platonist, he was also a great admirer of St. Paul --

"Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words. And he who searches the hearts of men knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."

The Catechism discusses the difference between the formal prayers and contemplative prayer, in which one speaks to God from one's heart of hearts. The best guides for this are the 16th century trio of St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, and St. Ignatius Loyola -- those three (the first two are doctors, for some reason, Ignatius is apparently not, though he probably ought to be) especially Teresa of Avila, comprise most of what the catechism teaches about prayer.

My take on this has always been rather different -- I believe in formal structured prayer first, because I think that the tendency towards unstructured prayer can get out of hand. The "old" prayers of the Raccolta and my 1962 missal are beautiful (particularly the prayers written by St. Ambrose and St. Thomas Aquinas for confession/communion), and act, for me anyway, as both prayer and catechesis.

God tends to come to me as written word; often I'll come across something in Scripture, a day or two after I've posed a question, that answers my innermost prayers. God undoubtedly knows that I do not trust thoughts in my head as coming from him, given the unholy nature of most of what I think; to me, he speaks back to me through the cipher of Scripture or lectio divina. Your experience/mileage may vary; trust the method that leads you reliably to Him.

I think post Vatican-II, there is a tendency in catechesis to concentrate on the contemplative prayer without first going through the fundamentals. It's a little like my 12-year old nephew's PeeWee football team -- they run a 90 play "west coast" offense complete with checkdowns, reads, and options -- and none of them know how to block.

But my view of the faith is unspeakably medieval. Trust your RCIA director, even though they may not always see what you're saying. They are giving you the overview; there are so many mansions inside this house once you're inside it that you'll find your own methods, guides, mentors, and fathers who speak to you.

I don't really have anything to add on St. Augustine (although, I will say, I really like the guy.)but I wanted to tell you that I told the devout Catholic Cake Eater parents that you were converting and they were happy for you. They also said they'd add you to the prayer list, for everything to go smoothly.

You're in good, Robbo. When my parents say they'll pray for you, you should know you've got serious intervention going on your behalf. ;)

Well thankee to your parents, Kathy. I just hope they realize what they're getting - a remaindered Palie.

I come from a very traditional Catholic background. My fiancee was also raised in the faith but fell away. Between us, we're extremely knowledgeable about Catholic minutiae, but some of those bits were the reason he fell away. With our wedding approaching, he's giving the Church another go to see if we can resolve some of the issues he has. To this end, we enrolled in the local RCIA in a Prince William Co parish to remain unnamed. We met with the teacher beforehand and her response to his questions was, "Well, that's interesting but don't bring it up in class. You'll confuse the converts. You can still come, but sit back and shuddup." These classes are good, but by necessity very superficial. Because a little knowledge can do a whole lotta damage, they tend to gloss over truths that can be easily misunderstood.

Trust the Church Fathers and keep in mind that these teachers are well meaning volunteers who don't have all the answers. I had to argue with the teacher a couple times before we stopped going because what she was saying was flat wrong and blatantly not what the Church teaches, but other times she had good insight on other matters. Just remember, God has given you the grace and tools you need. He's looking out for you.

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