You know, when I was linking that post, I was thinking, I wonder what Robbo would say.

Ha. Well said.

My troglodyte sensibilities are satified by two American Bandstand criterion - good beat, easy to dance to.

Yah, there are all sorts of apples/oranges problems with this kind of thing. But take good popular music throughout history and compare that to punk or gangsta rap and I think you get closer to a comparison of oranges and rotten oranges.

As I understand it, Duke Ellington once said, "If it sounds good, it is good." I think that's a pretty good standard to go by.

Any thoughts on German vs. Italian opera? I know that in the opera world, that is a divide as great as the East Coast/West Coast rapper wars.

Just asking, 'cause I'm spinning up Das Rheingold (Knappertsbusch-conducted edition from 1956) as we speak -- er, blog.

I'm with the Germans on this one. Word.

I called them 'classical smut' as a way of getting attention, not because I consider them 'low' in any way.

'I hardly think being dragged screaming off to hell by a group of demons for murder constitutes its glorification.'

But that's just it. What do so many rappers and punks nowadays sing about? Getting punished, being in danger, facing retribution from the law. For them, it's a selling point. For the Don, even more so. Plenty of people go to prison or get shot, but how many merit a statue and a horde of screaming demons? As Samuel Ramey (one of the greatest Don Giovannis in opera today) once said:

"Alot of people see Don Giovanni as an anti-hero. I can't agree. Yes, he's a rake, but he dominates the opera... When everything collapses around him, the Commendatore cries 'Repent!' But the Don will have none of it. He stands his ground, even when the ground is sliding away...Da Ponte wrote the character as if he wanted a little more of the Don in him. Maybe we all do."

Now to Zerlina. It's easy to see her 'Batti' aria as the sweet actions of an ingenue who knows her precious Masetto won't hurt her. It's true he won't, but this focuses on his character and ignores a larger aspect of Zerlina's own. She does have a dark side that many sopranos simply ignore, but in the 'per queste tue manine' duet (usually omitted) between her and Leporello, she ties the poor guy to a chair and threatens him with a knife, beating the crap out of him as she waits for Masetto to show up. This brings us back to the original idea of sadomasochism and domination, her constant refrain being "This is how you have to deal with men!"

As for Italian vs. German opera, I have more affinity for Verdi, Rossini, and Donizetti than Wagner or Strauss, but everyone can agree on Mozart.

zerlina a dominatrix? oh do lighten up. she is a bit of a tart--we do after all see her playing up to the don for all she's worth, and not entirely because she thinks he's hot stuff--he really gets her attention only when he mentions marriage and making a little lady of her. yes, she says to herself, that i'd like, but what if he's just stringing me along? masetto is the fallback guy, and all the alleged s-m stuff is her ragging the poor oaf, who is just a big baby, as we see in the scene after the don, in disguise, beats him. (he shows zerlina his little finger, which has been injured as well as other unspecified body parts.) the point is not that he would not beat zerlina, he can't even defend himself man to man. the scene where zerlina gets after leporello is rarely played because of its inferiority--the humor is way too broad, to the point of clumsiness. it adds nothing to the characterizations already better established. even da ponte had his off days.
none of the women are quite what they at first seem, actually, and part of the fun is how the ladidah donas are rather a lot like the blushing peasant bride, who herself is far from driven snow purity. mozart and daponte had a lot of fun with
the same idea in cosi fan tutte.
as for the don being heroic in his defiance, yes there is sort of a thrilling bit there--sort of like macbeth and richard iii when they're abt to be slain--and most of us are perverse enough to have a sneaking bit of admiration for it. but who would expect a genius like mozart to deal in mere black and white?

The problem with contemporary music is not that it is immoral, base, or somehow glorifying sex and violence, although at times it does all those things; the problem, where there is a problem is that it is bad art. This is not surprising, most art is bad art. It is difficult to see that when you’re talking about someone like Mozart since most, if not all, the bad art from his period has long been forgotten. That does not mean all contemporary music is bad art. As someone who enjoys both classical music and contemporary music, I can tell you that, in fact, a great deal of contemporary music handles issues of sex and violence with subtlety, wit and moral insight. That is part of what makes it good art. For example the classic 90s gangsta rap group The Geto Boys, on the surface one of the most violent and virulent rap groups of all time, sang about repentance and redemption along side their lyrics about revenge and sex. Punk rock groups, as well have a long history of engaging in thoughtful exploration of difficult issues, take, for example, The Clash’s “Tommy Gun,” a meditation on the stupidity of violence and the sacredness of human life, or for a more recent example, Anti-Flag’s similarly themed “A New Kind of Army.” That you don’t mention the subtly and moral complexity of contemporary music, while lauding it in Don Giovanni indicates one of the following two things, either:

1. You do not have more than a superficial knowledge of contemporary music, in which case you should not writing about it.

Or (what I think is more likely):

2. You recognize the existence of subtly and tact in dealing with issues of sex and violence in contemporary music, but feel, perhaps that the people who enjoy Mozart are, in general, of a class and/or race etc. better able to understand this complexity than those who listen to Punk or Rap.

Perhaps I’m wrong, maybe you can clear up your position for us.

Jon,
people who enjoy Mozart are, in general, of a class and/or race etc. better able to understand this complexity than those who listen to Punk or Rap.

Given your obvious intelligence, it is really poor to play the race/class struggle card in point two.

I don't have the depth or patience to appreciate Classical compositions, but I do recognize that it is a much more asthetic and complex animal than modern music.

Robert clearly says, "don't be so quick to dismiss the intrinsic value of a "catchy tune" as art for its own sake."

Interesting set of comments.

L.A. - Some good stuff. I used to have a recording of Ramey as D.G. Personally, I see the Don as somewhat akin to Milton's Lucifer in his defiance (and in his appeal to the listener/reader in this respect). But I've got to go with Mom in that I think you read too much S&M into Zerlina. She's tough and street-smart under her smile, but I don't think that makes her a dominatrix.

Colossus - As a matter of fact, I don't even like opera as a rule. Give me Mozart, some Rossini and some of Gluck's work of which I am quite fond and you can keep the rest.

Jon - You start out well by pointing out the pitfalls of making these kinds of comparison. The problem with this whole discussion is that we're really convoluting two different questions - comparitive treatment of social issues and artistic merit. You will see that I said the same sort of thing in my own follow up comments. I wasn't damning all contemporary music, but was talking specifically about punk and rap, both of which I consider to be bad art, as in bad forms of art, aesthetically speaking. Unfortunately, I got so caught up in nattering about the interpretation of Mozart's characters that perhaps I did not emphasize the latter point sufficiently.

In fact, I agree with a good deal of what you say, which makes it all the more unfortunate that you should drive your argument into the ditch by suggesting race or class motives behind my opinion. You yourself suggest I shouldn't write about things I don't know. I would suggest you take your own advice.

Gordon - you're a troublemaker.

How so? Just sayin' what you did with less words.

Ha! Just for teeing up the post to begin with. You knew I wouldn't be able to resist bloviating! Revenge for the Canadian thing?

[whistles while looking up at the sky]